Capitalist arguements

Submitted by Jabberman on 11 August, 2008 - 21:35.

these are excerpts from a debate I had with some "libertarians" a while ago, I'm afraid I did rather badly, I was hoping to hear what you guys thought.

"rights of the minority trampled on
no ability to efficiently allocate resources, based on lack of market pricing
no ability to deal with resource or good shortage

Without a market to allow for price-fluctuation, you'll have huge shortages in some areas and large surplusses in others.

Shortages when there is a "price" plan happen because the price is too low. This is what will happen.

without a capital market, there is no way of allocating resources in the ways consumers want. Consider the example of a collective farm that can grow corn or soybeans. If there is only one good being produced, this isn't a problem, as more is always preferable to less. However, since the farm is producing two products, there are hundreds of thousands of different production possibilities: 800 bushels of corn, 200 of soybeans; 650 corn, 350 soybeans; etc, etc. How do we know what to produce? How do we know how much of these commodities should be immediately consumed, and how do we know how much should be used as capital in the production of derivative products? Well, in a free market, consumers will bid up prices of the commodities (or their derivatives) that they want and refrain from buying those they don't; thus, competitive forces will bring the market into equilibrium. Yet how does a central planner know what to produce without these market signals? Answer: they can't. There is no possible way to determine the subjective wants of consumers (that can't be cardinally measured in the first place) without a market. Any decision will be purely arbitrary, thus the huge shortages, surpluses, and waste Knight mentioned. And the example I mentioned only has two products. In a modern, complex economy, production possibilities are virtually infinite.

Think of market prices as the traffic lights of the economy - they send the signals to producers about what to produce. Without them, you get chaos. The only reason centrally planned economies have hung on (with a standard of living a tiny fraction of freer-market economies) is that they have been able to rely on external markets to get pricing information.

this causes even more problems, as the person/firm that gets to the producer first gets the goods, which is not necessarily the most efficient use of scarce resources.

Shortages occur whenever the market price is below the equilibrium price. This may - in the extreme short run - be due to the factors you mentioned, but unless government sets a price ceiling (all in the name of "protecting the consumer" from "price gouging," of course), prices will quickly rise so that the quantity of goods sold will equal the quantity consumers demand. When price ceilings are set below equilibrium, you will create shortages.

Because of scarcity and the need to choose between alternatives, and due to the fact that wants can't be cardinally measured, there is no way to determine what the population desires without a free market .

And how is "their portion" determined in a way that isn't completely and totally arbitrary? How are resources allocated to the most efficient producers, and away from the least efficient producers?

Most often, shortages happen when demand exceeds supply because the cost is simply too low. Allow the price to rise and the shortage won't happen. The market process will work and clear.

However, when there's no rational way to set a price (such as in pareconosocialism), shortages happen because 1. there's no rational means of understanding how much to produce. 2. there's no rational way to set a price that will clear the market without causing a huge leftover demand

Why would I set price ceilings? Why is it necessary to have monetary exchanges at all?

To eliminate the need for double-coincidence of wants that a strictly-barter economy has. And if you don't even have barter, you are way back in the mandatory autarky section.

labor is done individually. While there may be groups, all the work is still done individually. Remuneration is decided between the employer and the employee."

12 August, 2008 - 08:10
Quote:
labor is done individually. While there may be groups, all the work is still done individually. Remuneration is decided between the employer and the employee."

No work is done individually. Take my last workplace, a petrol station. Often I was on the site alone (so the bosses could increase their rate of exploitation by paying one person minimum wage, preventing them from taking proper breaks at the same time), and yet I was working on a site distributing petrol which had been tankered in by other workers, refined by others, drilled and shipped by yet more. I was selling processed food which was delivered by more workers, produced and packeged by others, from milk and beans and sugar produced by more. There was nothing individual about it, and my renumeration was certainly not a negotiation with my boss - he payed the minimum feasible rate. If I had objected, I would have been replaced by someone more desperate. Simple enough stuff, this is the fundamental dynamic by which profit is turned and capital expropriated.

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Think of market prices as the traffic lights of the economy - they send the signals to producers about what to produce. Without them, you get chaos.

As opposed to the chaos of food speculation and inflation which is putting the price of food beyond the reach of the class who produce it throughout much of the world, bringing about misery and starvation? Why can't they afford it? Its certainly not because of poor negotiation with the employing class, as any serious collective attempts to "negotiate", through strikes for instance, are met with the repressive power of the bourgeois legal apparatus, courts, riot police, troops and tanks.

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rights of the minority trampled on

Which minority is this? The employing class? Preventing minority decision making is a fundamental democratic principle, but capitalists are rarely interested in democracy in any meaningful sense.

We propose not the chaos of the market, nor aurtarky, but a communism of sovereign democratic workers and consumers councils, to bring about production for need, rather than for the necessities of capital accumulation.

The anarchist faq has plenty of information to counter the arguments you have put forward, I recommend looking at it properly. For instance:

Quote:
I.1.3 What is wrong with markets anyway?

A lot. Markets soon result in what are termed "market forces," "impersonal" forces which ensure that the people in the economy do what is required of them in order for the economy to function. The market system, in capitalist apologetics, is presented to appear as a regime of freedom where no one forces anyone to do anything, where we "freely" exchange with others as we see fit. However, the facts of the matter are somewhat different, since the market often ensures that people act in ways opposite to what they desire or forces them to accept "free agreements" which they may not actually desire. Wage labour is the most obvious example of this, for, as we indicated in section B.4, most people have little option but to agree to work for others.

...

So, even if we assume a mutualist or market-socialist system of competing self-managed workplaces, it's clear that market forces would soon result in many irrationalities occurring. Most obviously, operating in a market means submitting to the profit criterion. This means that however much workers might want to employ social criteria, they cannot. To ignore profitability would cause their firm to go bankrupt. Markets therefore create conditions that compel workers and consumers to decide things which are not be in their interest, for example introducing deskilling or polluting technology, longer hours, and so on. We could also point to the numerous industrial deaths and accidents which are due to market forces making it unprofitable to introduce adequate safety equipment or working conditions, (conservative estimates for industrial deaths in the USA are between 14 000 and 25 000 per year plus over 2 million disabled), or to increased pollution and stress levels which shorten life spans.

In addition, a market-based system can result in what we have termed "the ethics of mathematics," where things (particularly money) become more important than people. This can have a de-humanising effect, with people becoming cold-hearted calculators who put profits before people. This can be seen in capitalism, where economic decisions are far more important than ethical ones. And such an inhuman mentality can be rewarded on the market. Merit does not "necessarily" breed success, and the successful do not "necessarily" have merit. The truth is that, in the words of Noam Chomsky, "wealth and power tend to accrue to those who are ruthless, cunning, avaricious, self-seeking, lacking in sympathy and compassion, subservient to authority and willing to abandon principle for material gain, and so on. . . Such qualities might be just the valuable ones for a war of all against all." [For Reasons of State, pp. 139-140] Thorstein Veblen elaborated at length on this theme in The Leisure Class, a classic analysis of capitalist psychology. Needless to be said, if the market does reward such people with success it can hardly be considered as a good thing. A system which elevates making money to the position of the most important individual activity will obviously result in the degrading of human values and an increase in neurotic and psychotic behaviour.

...

Any market system is also marked by a continuing need to expand production and consumption. This means that market forces ensure that work continually has to expand, causing potentially destructive results for both people and the planet. Competition ensures that we can never take it easy, for as Max Stirner argued, "[r]estless acquisition does not let us take breath, take a calm enjoyment. We do not get the comfort of our possessions. . . Hence it is at any rate helpful that we come to an agreement about human labours that they may not, as under competition, claim all our time and toil." [The Ego and Its Own, p. 268]

Value needs to be created, and that can only be done by labour. It is ironic that supporters of capitalism, while usually saying that "work" is and always will be hell, support an economic system which must continually expand that "work" (i.e. labour) while deskilling and automating it and those who do it. Anarchists, in contrast, argue that work need not be hell, and indeed, that when enriched by skills and self-management, can be enjoyable. We go further and argue that work need not take all our time and that labour (i.e. unwanted and boring work) can and must be minimised. Hence, while the "anti-work" capitalist submits humanity to more and more labour, the anarchist desires the liberation of "work" and the end of "labour" as a way of life.

In addition, market decisions are crucially conditioned by the purchasing power of those income groups that can back their demands with money. The market is a continuous bidding for goods, resources, and services, with those who have the most purchasing power the winners. This means that the market system is the worst one for allocating resources when purchasing power is unequally distributed. This is why orthodox economists make the convenient assumption of a "given distribution of income" when they try to show that a market-based allocation of resources is the best one (for example, "Pareto optimality"). While a mutualist system should reduce inequality drastically, it cannot be assumed that inequalities will not increase over time. This is because inequalities in resources leads to inequalities of power on the market. Any trade or contract will benefit the powerful more than the powerless, so re-enforcing and potentially increasing the inequalities and power between the parties. This could, over time, lead to a return to capitalism (as Proudhon himself noted, the "original equality [between contractor and workmen] was bound to disappear through the advantageous position of the master and the dependence of the wage-workers." [System of Economical Contradictions, p. 201]).

With the means of life monopolised by one class, the effects of market forces and unequal purchasing power can be terrible. As Allan Engler points out, "[w]hen people are denied access to the means of livelihood, the invisible hand of market forces does not intervene on their behalf. Equilibrium between supply and demand has no necessary connection with human need. For example, assume a country of one million people in which 900,000 are without means of livelihood. One million bushels of wheat are produced. The entire crop is sold to 100,000 people at $10 a bushel. Supply and demand are in equilibrium, yet 900 000 people will face starvation." [Apostles of Greed, pp. 50-51] In case anyone thinks that this just happens in theory, the example of African countries hit by famine gives a classic example of this occurring in practice. There, rich landowners grow cash crops and export food to the developed nations while millions starve in their own.

Lastly, there are the distributional consequences of the market system. As markets inform by 'exit' only -- some products find a market, others do not -- 'voice' is absent. The operation of 'exit' rather than 'voice' leaves behind those without power in the marketplace. For example, the wealthy do not buy food poisoned with additives, the poor consume it. This means a division grows between two environments: one inhabited by those with wealth and one inhabited by those without it. As can be seen from the current capitalist practice of "exporting pollution" to developing countries, this problem can have serious ecological and social effects. So, far from the market being a "democracy" based on "one dollar, one vote," it is an oligarchy in which, for example, the "79 000 Americans who earned the minimum wage in 1987 have the same influence [or "vote"] as Michael Milken, who 'earned' as much as all of them combined." [Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel, The Political Economy of Participatory Economics, p. 21]

In other words, markets are always biased in favour of effective demand, i.e. in favour of the demands of people with money. A market may be Pareto-optimal, but it can never (except in the imaginary abstractions of mathematical welfare economics) allocate the necessities of life to those who need them the most.

In addition, markets never internalise external costs. Two people (or companies) who strike a market-rational bargain between themselves need not consider the consequences of their bargain for other people outside their bargain, nor the consequences for the earth. Thus market exchanges are never bilateral agreements as their effects impact on the wider society (in terms of, say, pollution, inequality and so on). The market also ignores the needs of future generations as they always discount the value of the long term future. A payment to be made 1 000 years from now (a mere speck in geological time) has a market value of virtually zero according to any commonly used discount rate. Even 50 years in the future cannot be adequately considered as competitive pressures force a short term perspective on people harmful to present and future generations, plus the ecology of the planet.

This are largely straightforward logical arguments, which even a cursory look at the world would confirm.

For economic proposals, see

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secI4.html#seci46

12 August, 2008 - 08:39
Jabberman wrote:
Because of scarcity and the need to choose between alternatives, and due to the fact that wants can't be cardinally measured, there is no way to determine what the population desires without a free market.

Easy mind game smile

In a free market, the people with the money will buy the corn and use instead of gasoline.
The people without the money would like to buy the corn and use it as food.
The people with the money gets the corn instead, the people without the money starve.

Thats the free market for you. Meets consumption demands of course, but only the consumption demands of the rich since it is a market.

12 August, 2008 - 08:42

Too slow on answering there so now my post look silly when it is layed out so nicely above cool

14 August, 2008 - 00:42

I have read some of the FAQ, it is a bit over my head frankly, will try again though.

more excerpts:

to determine needs i woud use this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

That doesn't answer the question. How do you know what specifically to produce among alternatives, and in what quantities?

Without money, you have barter. There are no other alternatives, other than subsistence hunting/gathering.

On the issue of "gift economy".

I'm an engineer. I work hard doing mental work to build the nice things that people use, such as the computer used to preach socialism.

I don't do engineer work out of the goodness of my heart - I'd rather be an artist. Actually, I'd rather play video games and drink beer all day.

Given a gift economy, I know what I'll be doing, and it won't be engineering.

I'm one of the people the gift-economy socialists count on to show up for work the next day after they get their plans implemented. Me, personally.

I won't be there. I'll be drinking their beer and playing their video games.

That is why the gift economy will implode.

self ownership, a person owns himself and therefore his labour and it's products.
fine, but in modern industry labour is social (done by a group) how then to decide remuneration?

No, labor is still performed by individuals. And the interested parties decide on a rate of compensation in a mutually beneficial agreement.

hardly mutually benifical, it's an exploitive relationship

First, give me a concrete (read: not dictionary) definition of "exploitation." And by concrete, I mean something that can be tested and verified. Until you can do that, this is just a meaningless naked assertion.

Second, the relationship is voluntary on both sides. It's mutually beneficial by virtue of the fact that both parties undertake the voluntary agreement.

But we still have individuals doing the work. Sure, they may do it in a group, but THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GROUP OR SOCIETY WHICH IS NOT MADE UP OF INDIVIDUALS. Unless, of course, you have some alternate definition of "group" or "society" of which I have not been made aware. Do you have such a definition of "group" or "society"?

14 August, 2008 - 13:31
Jabberman wrote:
That doesn't answer the question. How do you know what specifically to produce among alternatives, and in what quantities?
Without money, you have barter. There are no other alternatives, other than subsistence hunting/gathering.

This is not true, stating it repeatedly won't change anything.
Money doesn't tell anyone how much of something to produce.
If a distribution centre (currently a shop) runs short (or anticipates running out) of a particular item someone who works there will order more, then this item will be send from a warehouse. When the warehouse begins to run out of that item then it will order more from its suppler. If something is used at a constant rate then new supplies can be sent out at a constant rate, without waiting for orders.
How is money required for this?

Jabberman wrote:
I'm an engineer. I work hard doing mental work to build the nice things that people use, such as the computer used to preach socialism.
I don't do engineer work out of the goodness of my heart - I'd rather be an artist. Actually, I'd rather play video games and drink beer all day.
Given a gift economy, I know what I'll be doing, and it won't be engineering.
I'm one of the people the gift-economy socialists count on to show up for work the next day after they get their plans implemented. Me, personally.
I won't be there. I'll be drinking their beer and playing their video games.
That is why the gift economy will implode.

There is a vary basic principle to anarchist/communist economics, "To each according need, from each according to ability"
If you can work but chose not to then you cant expect to sit around all day drinking beer, but if you do work you will have more choice over what work you do, and how, and will probably need to do less work than now, so you should have more time for beer, video games etc.

Jabberman wrote:
No, labor is still performed by individuals. And the interested parties decide on a rate of compensation in a mutually beneficial agreement.

Quote:
hardly mutually benifical, it's an exploitive relationship

First, give me a concrete (read: not dictionary) definition of "exploitation." And by concrete, I mean something that can be tested and verified. Until you can do that, this is just a meaningless naked assertion.
Second, the relationship is voluntary on both sides. It's mutually beneficial by virtue of the fact that both parties undertake the voluntary agreement.

This is just crap, both parties do not have equal power to chose whether to enter into this agreement, to live in the current society I need a job, but no business needs me, they need workers but there are lots of people who could take anyone job, so businesses have a lot more power than workers, and are able to dictate conditions and pay.
Its exploitation because the worker does not receive the full value of there labour, this is where businesses profits come from.

14 August, 2008 - 19:11
Quote:
Without money, you have barter. There are no other alternatives, other than subsistence hunting/gathering.

Actually there are - democratic descision making processes.

Quote:
Jabberman wrote:

I'm an engineer. I work hard doing mental work to build the nice things that people use, such as the computer used to preach socialism.
I don't do engineer work out of the goodness of my heart - I'd rather be an artist. Actually, I'd rather play video games and drink beer all day.
Given a gift economy, I know what I'll be doing, and it won't be engineering.
I'm one of the people the gift-economy socialists count on to show up for work the next day after they get their plans implemented. Me, personally.
I won't be there. I'll be drinking their beer and playing their video games.
That is why the gift economy will implode.

There is a vary basic principle to anarchist/communist economics, "To each according need, from each according to ability"
If you can work but chose not to then you cant expect to sit around all day drinking beer, but if you do work you will have more choice over what work you do, and how, and will probably need to do less work than now, so you should have more time for beer, video games etc.

Yes exactly. If you do sit around doing nothing, you cannot expect to receive the products of labour you are fully capable of participating in.

I like beer and computer games, and dislike wage labour. Big wow. But I certainly have bigger expectations of what life can be than sitting around all day except when I'm coerced into working for the enrichment of others. My idea of a fulfilling life isnt developing piles and ricketts infront of playstation.

This sort of "tragedy of the commons" argument by which capitalist apologists claim that "gift economies" lead to laziness has no basis in reality, usually only their own neuroses. For instance, there are no examples of commonly owned land falling to disuse because those working it were to lazy to feed themselves, or factories occupied by militant workers being abandoned to disuse because they'd rather stay in bed.

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self ownership, a person owns himself and therefore his labour and it's products.

If you believe this you must be an anti-capitalist. Capitalism is based on workers selling their time and energy in return for wages. What their time and energy produces belongs to their employers. Garment makers in Bangladesh do not take home the commodities they make - those commodies are sold by their employers. But then again the real world examples I gave in my previous post have been ignored too.

Quote:
Jabberman wrote:

No, labor is still performed by individuals. And the interested parties decide on a rate of compensation in a mutually beneficial agreement.
Quote:

hardly mutually benifical, it's an exploitive relationship

First, give me a concrete (read: not dictionary) definition of "exploitation." And by concrete, I mean something that can be tested and verified. Until you can do that, this is just a meaningless naked assertion.
Second, the relationship is voluntary on both sides. It's mutually beneficial by virtue of the fact that both parties undertake the voluntary agreement.

This is just crap, both parties do not have equal power to chose whether to enter into this agreement, to live in the current society I need a job, but no business needs me, they need workers but there are lots of people who could take anyone job, so businesses have a lot more power than workers, and are able to dictate conditions and pay.
Its exploitation because the worker does not receive the full value of there labour, this is where businesses profits come from.

I agree with this. You understand the idea of profit, surely? There is nothing voluntary about work in capitalism. You must become a wage labourer in order to gain the money necessary to live.

Can you explain how and when this mutually beneficial agreement is decided? I've never experienced this process in applying for and taking jobs. I've been offered a wage, if i dont accept it, I dont get the job. Simple. When wage cuts are imposed on workers, they must accept it or strike, and be met with a world of legal restrictions to undermine them. Thats if striking is even legal in the country they are in.

Quote:
First, give me a concrete (read: not dictionary) definition of "exploitation." And by concrete, I mean something that can be tested and verified. Until you can do that, this is just a meaningless naked assertion.

This is hilarious coming at the end of a post of "meaningless naked assertions".

14 August, 2008 - 20:34
Quote:
But we still have individuals doing the work. Sure, they may do it in a group, but THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GROUP OR SOCIETY WHICH IS NOT MADE UP OF INDIVIDUALS. Unless, of course, you have some alternate definition of "group" or "society" of which I have not been made aware. Do you have such a definition of "group" or "society"?

This is a tautology, not an argument. The point was not to say that there are "groups" doing work, if fact, my post says the opposite - every individual working is a part of a process, a social flow of activity. Sure there are individuals doing it, but this has no bearing on what work is, or the argument. Why would it? Society may be made up of individuals but it still exists. There is no such thing as an individual who is not a part of a wider human community.

14 August, 2008 - 20:39
Django wrote:
There is no such thing as an individual who is not a part of a wider human community.

except of course in the Robinson Crusoe abstractions of bourgeois economics wink

14 August, 2008 - 20:57

I think it's also worth bringing the democracy argument a bit to the fore. There is no democracy in the workplace, full stop. Unless you are a capitalist you'll have experience of a dictatorial boss. As individuals they might think that democracy is a good idea and are likely to support it in the civic sphere. At work, however, they are all hostile to any ideas outside their own control.

Once you start to unravel it, it becomes pretty indefensible. Manager X is a bully who makes crazy decisions. No one can hold him to account as he is the boss and answers only to a board who don't care as long as the bottom line is fine. The workers can choose to leave, but then will lose their wages, homes etc. How do lib caps defend this set up? (this is a rhetorical question...- they'll go on about the market deciding at some indeterminate point in the future)

Regards,

Martin

14 August, 2008 - 21:17

Oh hang on, I think i've missed that Jabberman doesnt actually hold these views. Oops embarrassed

14 August, 2008 - 21:19

dp

14 August, 2008 - 22:02
martinh wrote:
I think it's also worth bringing the democracy argument a bit to the fore. There is no democracy in the workplace, full stop. Unless you are a capitalist you'll have experience of a dictatorial boss. As individuals they might think that democracy is a good idea and are likely to support it in the civic sphere. At work, however, they are all hostile to any ideas outside their own control.

Once you start to unravel it, it becomes pretty indefensible. Manager X is a bully who makes crazy decisions. No one can hold him to account as he is the boss and answers only to a board who don't care as long as the bottom line is fine. The workers can choose to leave, but then will lose their wages, homes etc. How do lib caps defend this set up? (this is a rhetorical question...- they'll go on about the market deciding at some indeterminate point in the future)

Regards,

Martin

This can be a good line of argument in a debate with someone who accepts and defends a basic liberal idea of democracy. They'll promote the idea of representative democracy in the political sphere but bring up the idea of voting for a boss and suddenly they come up with what amount to justifications for dictatorship (having the right qualities, not being able trust the electorate to make the right decision, coming from the right background etc).

(Not that i'm advocating a choose-your-boss system - and Martin's line is more relevant to the discussion the OP is in. It's just funny that something which should fit in with liberal ideas of democracy becomes anathema when related to the workplace).

15 August, 2008 - 18:59
Django wrote:
Oh hang on, I think i've missed that Jabberman doesnt actually hold these views. Oops embarrassed

glad you caught on, I was going to be slightly upset.

16 August, 2008 - 19:21

"no ability to deal with resource or good shortage"

I'm not sure what your libcaps are on about here, but I really don't see how unrestrained capitalism is supposed to conserve scarce natural resources. Quite the opposite - since they become so much more valuable there is greater incentive to exploit them even more rapidly. And there is nothing to stop them from doing so, because there is no democratic input or rational process behind the allocation of resources at all. It is driven exclusively by the market, and the market simply encourages rapid consumption of dwindling resources. Whatever conservation might be gained by higher prices is quickly offset by the increased incentive to exploit those resources. Negative externalities simply don't exist in the libcom's mind.

17 August, 2008 - 17:16
Jabberman wrote:
Django wrote:
Oh hang on, I think i've missed that Jabberman doesnt actually hold these views. Oops embarrassed

glad you caught on, I was going to be slightly upset.

Yeah sorry.

Here's a good passage by Fredy Perlman (when he was sane) which has a nice relevency to these discussions, specifically allocation and the objectivity of exploitation.

Quote:
The capitalist sells the products of labor on a market; he exchanges them for an equivalent sum of money; he realizes a determined value. The specific magnitude of this value on a particular market is the price of the commodities. For the academic Economist, Price is St. Peter's key to the gates of Heaven. Like Capital itself, Price moves within a wonderful world which consists entirely of objects; the objects have human relations with each other, and are alive; they transform each other, communicate with each other; they marry and have children. And of course it is only through the grace of these intelligent, powerful and creative objects that people can be so happy in capitalist society.

In the Economist's pictorial representations of the workings of heaven, the angels do everything and men do nothing at all; men simply enjoy what these superior beings do for them. Not only does Capital produce and money work; other mysterious beings have similar virtues. Thus Supply, a quantity of things which are sold, and Demand, a quantity of things which are bought, together determine Price, a quantity of money; when Supply and Demand marry on a particular point of the diagram, they give birth to Equilibrium Price, which corresponds to a universal state of bliss. The activities of everyday life are played out by things, and people are reduced to things ("factors of production") during their productive" hours, and to passive spectators of things during their "leisure time." The virtue of the Economic Scientist consists of his ability to attribute the outcome of people's everyday activities to things, and of his inability to see the living activity of people underneath the antics of the things. For the Economist, the things through which the activity of people is regulated under capitalism are themselves the mothers and sons, the causes and consequences of their own activity.

The magnitude of value, namely the price of a commodity, the quantity of money for which it exchanges, is not determined by things, but by the daily activities of people. Supply and demand, perfect and imperfect competition, are nothing more than social forms of products and activities in capitalist society; they have no life of their own. The fact that activity is alienated, namely that labor-time is sold for a specific sum of money, that it has a certain value, has several consequences for the magnitude of the value of the products of that labor. The value of the sold commodities must at least be equal to the value of the labor-time. This is obvious both from the standpoint of the individual capitalist firm, and from the standpoint of society as a whole. If the value of the commodities sold by the individual capitalist were smaller than the value of the labor he hired, then his labor expenditures alone would be larger than his earnings, and he would quickly go bankrupt. Socially, if the value of the laborers production were smaller than the value of their consumption, then the labor force could not even reproduce itself, not to speak of a class of capitalists. However, if the value of the commodities were merely equal to the value of the labor- time expended on them, the commodity producers would merely reproduce themselves, and their society would not be a capitalist society; their activity might still consist of commodity production, but it would not be capitalist commodity production.

For labor to create Capital, the value of the products of labor must be larger than the value of the labor. In other words, the labor force must produce a surplus product, a quantity of goods which it does not consume, and this surplus product must be transformed into surplus value, a form of value which is not appropriated by workers as wages, but by capitalists as profit. Furthermore, the value of the products of labor must be larger still, since living labor is not the only kind of labor materialized in them. In the production process, workers expend their own energy, but they also use up the stored labor of others as instruments, and they shape materials on which labor was previously expended.

This leads to the strange result that the value of the laborer's products and the value of his wage are different magnitudes, namely that the sum of money received by the capitalist when he sells the commodities produced by his hired laborers is different from the sum he pays the laborers. This difference is not explained by the fact that the used- up materials and tools must be paid for. If the value of the sold commodities were equal to the value of the living labor and the instruments, there would still be no room for capitalists. The fact is that the difference between the two magnitudes must be large enough to support a class of capitalists-not only the individuals, but also the specific activity that these individuals engage in, namely the purchase of labor. The difference between the total value of the products and the value of the labor spent on their production is surplus value, the seed of Capital.

From the Reproduction of Everyday Life

17 August, 2008 - 17:38
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Without a market to allow for price-fluctuation, you'll have huge shortages in some areas and large surplusses in others.

With a market based on commodity production there is also huge shortages in some areas and surpluses in others, it just depends on where the money lies. This becomes perverse during famines. The very orthodox economist Amartya Sen wrote quite a bit about this and in all of the famines he researched there was always a food surplus in areas where famine hit the hardest. What happened in those areas? Wile the poor starved to death the food was sent out to other areas where money could be made. In famine situations the "markets" are not subject to failure as most orthodox economists would argue, rather the are working perfect. And this is the real problem of the cash nexus, that it cannot meet everyone's needs only that of profit and capital's reproduction.

17 August, 2008 - 18:53
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
Without a market to allow for price-fluctuation, you'll have huge shortages in some areas and large surplusses in others.

With a market based on commodity production there is also huge shortages in some areas and surpluses in others, it just depends on where the money lies. This becomes perverse during famines.

And not just famines, but even mere economic downturns ... there was an article either on this site or linked to from this site recently dealing with "bootleg coal" (easily found via search engine) that gives a great example of how the capitalist, property-based market often fails to, and even stands in the way of, the natural and logical allocation of goods.

17 August, 2008 - 21:00
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capitalist, property-based market often fails to, and even stands in the way of, the natural and logical allocation of goods.

sure, in order to control prices, business sabotages productivity. A just society can only be organized by the whole people themselves in their own interest.